Visit Captain Sim web site  
  Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register

 

Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Re: Waypoint Navigation Accuracy (Read 8304 times)
Markoz
CS Team
*
Offline



Posts: 12376
Location: Victoria, Australia
Joined: Apr 24th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: Waypoint Navigation Accuracy
Jan 20th, 2012 at 1:29am
Print Post  
The only thing I can say about this is that FSX is buggy. We had a discussion on VOR navigation  and how the track of a particular VOR was off by quite a bit.  The ATC was informing us that we were off track and to "turn to heading XXX" to get back on track. This was confusing as the VOR track was wrong compared to both the GPS and ATC, but according to the HSI, we were tracking the VOR correctly, although we were really 3 or so miles to the left of the Flight Plan displayed on the FS GPS. This was happening in the Captain Sim (727, I think) aircraft as well as the default MSFS aircraft, so I/we concluded that it must be FSX causing the fault, not the Captain Sim aircraft.

As for the rest of your query, this reply from LOU in the 727 forum, might help you with how it is done: http://www.captainsim.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1299896115/29#29
If not, hopefuly he will jump in here and help you out.

Mark
  

Mark Fletcher



PC: i7 10700K @3.8/5.1GHz | 64GB DDR4 3200 | 12GB RTX 4070 Super | 32" LCD Monitor | 1TB SSD & 2x2TB SSD | Win 11 Pro - FSX/FSX-SE/P3D3/P3D4/P3D5/P3D6/MSFS2020
15.6" Gaming Laptop: i7 7700HQ | 32GB DDR4 | 6GB GTX 1060 | 256GB SSD & 1TB HDD | Win 10 Pro 64bit - FSX-SE/P3D4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boeing247
Senior Member
*
Offline


Pilots: Looking down on
people since 1903

Posts: 1506
Location: Southern CA
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2011
Gender: Male
Re: Waypoint Navigation Accuracy
Reply #1 - Jan 21st, 2012 at 5:49am
Print Post  
By the way, Mark, I've been doing a lot of flights with VOR navigation and I've discovered that the closer you get to the VOR, the closer the reading is to the GPS. I'm not sure of the exact distance-to-offset ratio, though.
  

-Bram Osterhout&&&&&&&&Dell XPS 8300 | Windows 7 64 Bit | AMD Radeon HD 6770 | Intel i7-2600 @ 3.40GHz | 1000GB Hard Drive
Back to top
WWWGTalkSkype/VoIP  
IP Logged
 
Markoz
CS Team
*
Offline



Posts: 12376
Location: Victoria, Australia
Joined: Apr 24th, 2009
Gender: Male
Re: Waypoint Navigation Accuracy
Reply #2 - Jan 21st, 2012 at 12:42pm
Print Post  
Most of the time I do VOR to VOR navigation when I'm flying GA aircraft, so I'm not totally sure of the accuracy. As long as I can navigate to my destination with VOR's, I'm happy. Wink
  

Mark Fletcher



PC: i7 10700K @3.8/5.1GHz | 64GB DDR4 3200 | 12GB RTX 4070 Super | 32" LCD Monitor | 1TB SSD & 2x2TB SSD | Win 11 Pro - FSX/FSX-SE/P3D3/P3D4/P3D5/P3D6/MSFS2020
15.6" Gaming Laptop: i7 7700HQ | 32GB DDR4 | 6GB GTX 1060 | 256GB SSD & 1TB HDD | Win 10 Pro 64bit - FSX-SE/P3D4
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LOU
Beta Team
*
Offline


727,707,747,757,767=
40years of Boeings

Posts: 1594
Location: Central PA, USA
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: Waypoint Navigation Accuracy
Reply #3 - Jan 21st, 2012 at 5:12pm
Print Post  
The VOR!




vans...you can do this, but only if you want!  Tongue

Each radial has width. As you fly out from the station the one degree of arc gets wider.
At 60 miles from the station a degree is one mile wide. At 120 miles it grows to 2 miles wide.
Adding to any error is the OBS knob. If you are a bit sloppy in putting in the exact degree of
selected radial or there is a bit of slop in the knob itself you can see how the accuracy of navigation begins to slip.  



Flying from VOR to VOR or VOR to an intersection is pretty easy, and was all we had back in the 60's.

If you think using the VOR is hard, you should try flying a radio range!  Huh No sissy pilots here!



Lou

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
  

Processor: Intel Core i7-4770k @3.5Ghz Memory: 6Gb DDR3 1600mhz Video: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 Storage: 256Gb Samsung 840 Pro | 120Gb OCZ Agility 3 | WD Black 640Gb 7200rpm 55" Samsung LED - HDTV for monitor
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LOU
Beta Team
*
Offline


727,707,747,757,767=
40years of Boeings

Posts: 1594
Location: Central PA, USA
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: Waypoint Navigation Accuracy
Reply #4 - Jan 21st, 2012 at 10:43pm
Print Post  
vans asked:

Re: Waypoint Navigation Accuracy
Reply #7 - Today at 14:28:02   Lou,

I read a tutorial on tracking waypoints by you using the two available DME displays (Tuned to two VORs)  to get direction and distance of an approaching waypoint (intersection) onto a new jetway ( I think it was you?).


Just so as not confuse people the proper name is AIRWAYS, not jetways which as you know are used to access the plane.

There are low level airways called Vector Airways (with a V) and high level (FL180+) called Jet Airways (with a J), or HL (high level in Canada).

Here are examples of the same area:
LOW altitude

HIGH altitude



So can I ask, is getting to around 2nm of the waypoint  - not the VOR but the waypoint I'm tracking using the two VORs - accurate enough;  do you have any advice on calculating a turn onto a new heading to setup an accurate heading on any new leg?

As Mark explaned, there is a bug in FSX, so you may not get the same results on the game as you would in real life. You can try an experiment to see how close you get in FSX. Select an airway and track the center line to an intersection that has both DME and a cross radial. Use both methods to see if the DME and the cross radial match. In real life, the DME is slant range, so there is a small error in the actual position of the plane over the ground. Using a cross radial should eliminate the slant range error. Slant range error is worse as you get closer to the station.



In this example the error is almost a mile.

Where you make the turn at an intersection depends on your speed. In a Cessna doing 100 knots you can pretty much turn at the intersection, but in a jet doing 500 knots you would lead by a few miles since the rate of turn is slower the faster you go.  

I didn't know the arc of the radial expanded as such - so I've learnt something. I haven't tried and in fact don't really know radio range but I'm going to have serious look at that!

Don't bother with the radio range because they were phased out in the early 60's!  Shocked 

Lou

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
  

Processor: Intel Core i7-4770k @3.5Ghz Memory: 6Gb DDR3 1600mhz Video: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 Storage: 256Gb Samsung 840 Pro | 120Gb OCZ Agility 3 | WD Black 640Gb 7200rpm 55" Samsung LED - HDTV for monitor
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LOU
Beta Team
*
Offline


727,707,747,757,767=
40years of Boeings

Posts: 1594
Location: Central PA, USA
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: Waypoint Navigation Accuracy
Reply #5 - Jan 22nd, 2012 at 7:34pm
Print Post  
Quick look at ADF

The most under used instrument in the modern day cockpit is the ADF. Back in the days of the early jets, the ADF (automatic direction finder) was a very valuable navigation tool.
Now in the days of moving maps, IRS and GPS the term NDB leaves some pilots with a blank stare.
NDB stands for non directional beacon. Another term pilots of the early jets used was "bird dog" since on a fixed card instrument the needle shows only relative bearing.
Even the term fixed card is not exact since the card with the printed compass can be turned by the pilot.
It wasn't until the addition of a remote driven compass card that the instrument was called the ADF.

This is a fixed card DF (direction finder) or "bird dog." The knob allows the pilot to move the non-north seeking compass card to the planes current heading.
By moving the card to the current heading it makes the math a bit easier.


A true ADF has a feed from a compass source that automatically turns the card to the correct heading making it an automatic direction finder.  
This is the ADF instrument in the CS 707-300. There are two needles and two source selections so the pilot can display either NDB or VOR information from the left or right set of radios.


In the above picture the two lower knobs are selected to the ADF position. When there is no signal the needles go to a parked three o'clock position on the instrument.

In the 707 the control head for the ADF is located on the pilots overhead position. The 727 has the control head down on the center pedestal.
The control head for the ADF consist of several knobs and switches.



The selector knob on the lower left is the main ON-OFF switch.
First position is ADF. This allows the unit to display the bearing to the station.
The next position is ANT (antenna). This position is used to listen to a radio station without bearing information.
Last is the LOOP position, used in conjunction with the LOOP knob to electronically turn the loop antenna for non automatic bearing information. Next to the LOOP control is the BFO (beat frequency oscillator). This is used when the signal strength is weak or there is a lot of noise. The BFO acts as a whistle tuner to help get the station on frequency.

The window displays the selected frequency under the lubber line. Later units with digital tuning were much easier to tune.

The tune knob is all the way on the right side of the control head. It has 3 bands that can be selected by moving the lower collar. The upper knob moves the numbers in the window. In FSX tuning the ADF can be a bit of a chore, so use the mouse, as I show above, to show what exact frequency you have dialed in. Just float the mouse cursor over the TUNE knob and a window will appear with the selected frequency.



Next I want to show a map with multiple plane positions during vectoring for an approach to KIAD RW1R.



This is the map in FSX. By mousing over items on the map you can identify all the items and frequencies and courses for various approach aids in the area.






Using the ADF to display the TILLY LOM/NDB as the plane flies the pattern, the relative magnetic position is displayed in the ADF instrument.



Position 1 shows the plane on a west heading entering the traffic pattern at KIAD.
The ADF needle is pointing at the LOM/NDB called TILLY and identified by the two letter code IA - frequency 346.0 in red on the map.

In each position, you will see the airceaft heading and the relative bearing of the LOM/NDB. (Low frequency Outer Marker)  

The ADF is a great tool to use to keep track of where you are in the area of the airport. Sure, there is no DME, but the relative bearing to the outer marker in this case gives the pilot a ton of information and improves situational awareness in the pre-moving map days.

Use the numbered positions of each plane to see what the instrument would display using the outer marker. As you turn base in Fig. 5 you can see how close to the final turn you are by the bearing change as you fly west. Using the ADF you can vector yourself because you know where you are relative to the marker.

Between plane 6 & 7 I show a display with the ADF needle pointing a bit to the right. This shows wind drift. Even though the planes heading is still lined up to the north the plane is drifting to the west because of an east wind. All the pilot need to do is make a correction to the right to counter the wind and get back on course as is shown in position 7.

As you pass the station (marker) the needle will point to the tail of the plane since it is showing the relative position of the marker.

Practice a bit with the ADF and if you like to fly the old planes as they were flown in the past, you will find the ADF to be invaluable.



Lou

Uploaded with ImageShack.us





  

Processor: Intel Core i7-4770k @3.5Ghz Memory: 6Gb DDR3 1600mhz Video: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 Storage: 256Gb Samsung 840 Pro | 120Gb OCZ Agility 3 | WD Black 640Gb 7200rpm 55" Samsung LED - HDTV for monitor
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LOU
Beta Team
*
Offline


727,707,747,757,767=
40years of Boeings

Posts: 1594
Location: Central PA, USA
Joined: Mar 3rd, 2010
Gender: Male
Re: Waypoint Navigation Accuracy
Reply #6 - Jan 27th, 2012 at 10:32pm
Print Post  
Chris,

I'm glad you are having some fun with basic navigation.

Here is a little drawing I made to show some basic ADF tracking.
Your C-152 most likely does not have an ADF, but just a fixed card NDB "bird dog."
The only difference is the compass in the ADF moves to show magnetic heading, and thus magnetic bearing to the NDB.



Starting at plane A, check out your heading and bearing to the XYZ-NDB.
In this example you would like to use the NDB to locate Van's Field, which is north of the NDB.
As you approach the course from the southeast you can see in the instrument A that your heading is around 330 degrees and the bearing to XYZ is about 10 degrees right of the north course you need to fly to Van's Field.

At position B, You are still on the 330 heading and right on the north bearing that will take you to Van's Field.
All you need to do is turn to a north heading and track the bearing to the station. When you are tracking to the station the needle head points to the beacon.

Position C shows you right on track.

At position D, you have drifted off the the west (left) but you remain on the 360 heading. In the ADF instrument at your present position the heading shows 360 and the needle is showing about 10 degrees right. You need to turn to the right to get back on track.

Position E shows you just about back on track, but your heading is around 030 degrees. You should turn back on course, but maybe add a few degrees for the east wind.

In position F, you have passed the NDB and have put too much of a correction for wind and drifted east (right) of your intended track. The needle is now pointing to the station behind the plane. The tail of the needle acts opposite from the head, so you will now have to "drag" the tail back on track.

In position G, you have made the correction to the left and are now getting back on track. The needle shows you just about on track, but the heading is 340 degrees, so a right turn now will get you back on track.

Position H shows you on the north heading but tracking just west of track.

With a bit of practice, flying the NDB is a snap. Holding your heading and any wind correction is the key.



Now as far as tuning the ADF in the old 707/727, you just have to get close to the proper frequency and then use the meter to get the best signal. You will always have to identify the station by listening to the Morse Code for all nav aids! LOM-NDB's are short range (40 miles or so) Some commercial radio stations put out 50,000 watts and can be tracked for long distance, but be careful as they don't identify them selves often. There are still a few long range NDB's around the country, but they are becoming rare.



The red arrow shows the tuning meter pegged out - good signal.
Tuning the old ADF was a pain, but in FSX you can use the mouse over information as you get close to the proper frequency.
In the picture above I am using a LOM-NDB frequency 204.0. I use the left or right mouse button to get close to 204, then using short taps on the mouse button I keep an eye on the information shown by stop clicking and just place the cursor on the knob.
If I need to correct a bit more, I make the correction and re-check the mouse over information.
You don't see the cursor in the screen capture, but it was anywhere on the knob marked TUNE.

Lou

Uploaded with ImageShack.us  



  

Processor: Intel Core i7-4770k @3.5Ghz Memory: 6Gb DDR3 1600mhz Video: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680 Storage: 256Gb Samsung 840 Pro | 120Gb OCZ Agility 3 | WD Black 640Gb 7200rpm 55" Samsung LED - HDTV for monitor
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board  ^Top